1 | kinzi

January 12th, 2010 at 9:25 am

Good thoughts to ponder. I got a mental picture of a window that opened, allowed fresh air for a time, and living things thrived. Then the window closed, and a sort of suffocation began.

I do believe that living here has opened windows for me, yet some of what I breathed in was not fresh. So I selectively open the window after surveying the scene.

Who knows for how much longer.

2 | BamBam

January 12th, 2010 at 11:07 am

Actually that’s one of the ideas.
The process where you edit your self, your behavior and how you interact rubs on you quite significantly where you no longer just editing your self but you became edited yourself because you limit yourself.
Not saying its good or bad since it’s neither. In actuality its more of a necessity than anything else, no one wants to come off brutish and unedited.

3 | kinzi

January 12th, 2010 at 2:10 pm

Oh my, I just love it when I get what you talk about!!!

God help us from become edited versions of individuality.

Forgot to say, thanks for posting again!

4 | Rana

January 12th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

Welcome Back!!
Well, I asked my aunt who grew up in the 70-80s and she said “back then everybody had morals, ethics, if you walk naked down the street people will not even look at you. Now even if you are covered up from head to toe, people will stare and judge. now they are doing the worst things ever and getting away with it only because they are in appearance “true muslims” ”
“back then, everybody knew everybody and everyone behaved, no one could get out of line. therefore, people were better behaved.”

5 | KJ

January 13th, 2010 at 9:44 am

I believe I can answer your question of how much is left of “us” by the invasion of society in our minds by saying that the “us” comes quite later.

Everyone is influenced by their surroundings from day 1, and the upbringing heavily affects how we rationalize certain behaviours. However, the individual in us kicks in as soon as we start to question without having a contradicting influence. For example, if you’ve been growing up doing one thing all the time, and you ask yourself “well, there must be another side to this” WITHOUT having been exposed to any other side, then the individual comes up.

It’s hard to isolate, but a better understanding of the self comes with time, if at all – for even if you want to do something else, be something else, and work in something else, or oppose a common standard, it all might be because you have seen something that interested you or have seen someone else do it.

Probably we realize the individual in us way down the road, when most of things have been said and done. If you can reach self actualization earlier, all the better for you!

6 | BamBam

January 13th, 2010 at 10:28 am

@rana Thanks! While sometimes i attribute that to romanticizing the past but it certainly holds some credence. So maybe a tightly knit society makes people more tolerant or is it that it makes them better at hiding the things they don’t want others to know about …

@KJ
“Probably we realize the individual in us way down the road, when most of things have been said and done. If you can reach self actualization earlier, all the better for you!”
That’s the thing that i don’t really hold true, self actualization is not a goal that you reach and sit at. Self actualization is actually who you are not and achieving that doesn’t require you to do much other than exist.
Understanding ones self actually goes a long the same lines, it’s not that all our potentials are intrinsic but especially when it comes to the idea of identity its more layered like a growing onion. The more time goes on the more layers you adopt and make your own.
Then how society can create the incentive for you do slow but surely drop the layers that will cost you the most if you want to remain integrated within it. And how can you reverse the process to create tolerance within society? what are the ideals that a person needs to hold to be tolerant? does that person even exist in the genuine pure sense? (i don’t think so)
pretty much its all questions right now and not many answers. sooreee

7 | KJ

January 13th, 2010 at 1:57 pm

Hehe, no need to apologize.

Yes, of course reaching that level of the self doesn’t mean you just sit there and lounge around. I dunno how removing the layers society imposed upon you is fully possible. Will you even be aware of some layers? Don’t forget that you need a reference to the true self if you are to remove the layers that surround it!

The quest to that could probably start by questioning the oh so many layers around you, disregarding and taking in some. The question is how much do you peel away for you to be you if you are looking for you! It’s a continuous process, and I believe the level of content plays a big role.

As for tolerance… it’s a tough job to change mankind’s opinion, unless you’re Oprah

8 | BamBam

January 13th, 2010 at 2:26 pm

the idea that you are posing that there is a “true self” that i’m trying to uncover is not something I see or believe in actually. I’m just me right now, everything else is either history or predictions.
What i’m trying to get it is similar to what you are saying, but on the level of society. If people in a society are usually required to conform, To conform you need to forgo individuality in its strict sense.
If that is the case then what are the elements that allow opposition and contrarian elements to survive in a society.
Some of those elements in my opinion are:
*Bonding with others like them and cocooning themselves
*Forming a different public and private personas
*Adopting as much of the majorities ethos as possible without compromising their own
That last item is the one i credit with putting them on the slippery slope of continuing to edge close the being the majority themselves in the end.
Thanks for the comments you are leaving i managed to get to this point …

9 | Tala

January 15th, 2010 at 3:41 pm

The idea of how individualistic are we? how society shapes our individualism and our perception of it and how can this process be manipulated

each generation builds on the ideas and values of the preceding one, sometimes by way of rejection and change, sometimes by conformity and development. but every now and then there is a paradigm shift and a new way of looking at things is discovered and this won’t happen without both, individuals challenging accepted concepts and gradually the momentum of a society to make the shift happen and to project it into our lifestyles.

how much can an individual be able to maintain a mentality that is not consistent with that of his social surrounding, and what are the mechanisms by which, over time, society narrows the gap between his personal ideology and society at large

its either one will emphasize those ideas that differ from the social norm, or will compromise on, and try to re- interpret it in a way that brings them in line with the prevailing lifestyle, once that happens, for example, members of the same religion, living in different societies, start to disagree about their religious ethics.

10 | Tala

January 15th, 2010 at 3:58 pm

but come to think of it, in the Arab world, it doesn’t teach us much to be individuals.

11 | BamBam

January 16th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

I don’t really think that people build on previous ideas and thoughts as a society, it’s less linear and more ruled by circumstances.
Like you said the arab world puts a very high price on being a visible individual hence people would rather be under the radar

12 | Eman

February 5th, 2010 at 10:07 pm

Could you please explain this “It’s even more surprising that they seem to just repeat that ethos without any inkling of realization, as if it was a subliminal message implanted in their psyche in their youth to forever progress the conservative agenda.”

I don’t see the relevance between how the conformity of that certain opinion progresses a conservative agenda. Just because some of the urban areas in Arab countries, whether it was due to occupation or otherwise, exercised “liberal freedoms”, does not confirm that the majority of Arabs/Muslims were less religious at the time.

13 | Eman

February 6th, 2010 at 3:17 am

I wasn’t going to leave a comment, cuz I believe that this topic deserves a wider discussion. Let me just throw in my 2 cents. Here goes nothing.

In regards to individuals and conformity, I don’t know if there is an explanation/answer to that, as I would like to hear it as well.

The whole issue seems pretty versatile to me. I think conformity will always be the easier route. Individuality, on the other hand, ranges from a simple “edit” to a complete transformation. These diverse alterations also differ in the effect they leave on society’s reaction towards the individual. I believe that society does not react as strongly towards the more subtle modifications as opposed to a broader conversion.

I actually sense that there is a “subliminal” question beneath the more generalized one. Which is the case in most of your posts. Maybe I read too much into things, hence the psychoanalysis tendencies, but your question can be answered in many different ways; one answer just doesn’t seem to give it justice.

14 | bambam

February 7th, 2010 at 11:44 am

sorry for the late reply
Up until 1967 arab culture was a lot more diverse than it is nowadays because they allowed themselves to believe in many more ideologies than just an islamic one which actually was an outlier at the end of the 19th century. Those in the city center could afford to argue about such things while people in the villages were conservative culturally and not religiously and that’s an entirely different thing.

As for the second comment I wasn’t looking for a particular answer per se i was just curious what others thought about the question and their experiences with change.
It wont be just about individuality but about how much of your character do u owe to your environment.
and of course there is always an underlying question

15 | Eman

February 10th, 2010 at 5:04 am

I wonder where your hesitance to reply came from….hmmmmmm, is it cuz of “certain differences” expressed a while back ago. Akkhhhh……..just when I thought I found someone interesting enough to challenge my intellect.

I hope not, because you seem a lot more intelligent then to let that bother you, or am I giving you too much credit?

I know a lot of people don’t agree with my approach in the attempt to discuss/debate any given topic, as I can be aggressive at times, but what can I say, this is who I am. Am I explaining myself? maybe. Why? just felt that I needed to.

I’ve come to know you as a very unique individual, which is probably the reason why I read your posts.
I’m not saying that I agree with all of your opinions, to the contrary, its just that I respect a person who will make an effort in fighting for what they believe in. Besides, I like a challenge every once in a while, as so many bloggers are submissively boring as hell.

In regards to the psychological analysis that I promised. I find it extremely hard to “dissect” the characteristics of one who prefers to remain “anonymous”. Is that subliminal enough for ya ; )

take care

16 | bambam

February 10th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

lol no Eman not at all, its just that i didn’t quite put my hand on what you where tackling with your comments. whether it’s the fact that people were not less religious back in the day or its something else.
Thank you for thinking so highly of me, i appreciate it and i don’t remember what “certain differences” you are referring it so totally not an issue to me.
The underlying question is mentioned in the post; what are the elements that influence change and how can they be controlled.

17 | eman

February 11th, 2010 at 6:36 am

There ya go
I knew there was a reason I liked you…..lol